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Andrew Friedman Podcast


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WINE TALKS WITH ANDREW FRIEDMAN

[Intro]: Now from high on top his desk, get ready to peel it all back and get to the root of the subject. No pun intended with Paul k on Wine Talks, where he takes no prisoners and calls it, the way he sees it.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Welcome to wine talks with Paul Kay and we're here in Southern California beautiful day here in Southern California. And we are all the way into New York today with author Andrew Friedman. And we'll get to the introductions in just a second. Wine of the Month Club is the perennial sponsor of wine talks with Paul K and wine talks is available anywhere you hang out for your podcasts. I Heart Radio, Pandora, Spotify, Stitcher, you name it, we are there. We're going to have a ton of fun today. We are talking to Andrew Friedman, who is the author of over 30 books. I think varying subjects, right? Andrew, we talking just chef, chef them and food are many subjects.

Andrew Friedman: It's almost all chef and food-related. The one big exception was I collaborated on a, it's funny to call it a memoir, because even now 10 years later, he's still so young, but I collaborated A Memoir with a tennis player by the name of James Blake, who was the top American tennis player for a while. And that grew out of my love for tennis. But yeah, but other than that anomaly, yes, all chef and food books.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Well, that's interesting. You brought that up because I read, I did read that you're a tennis enthusiast.

Andrew Friedman: I am, I don't know where you would have read that. 

Paul Kalemkiarian: I don't know. It's funny. I don't know. Maybe it was with the podcast I listened to, so where he is? This is a, this is one of my favorite trivia questions that leads into a whole bunch of a, but where he is the Tennis Hall of Fame?

Andrew Friedman: In Newport, Rhode Island.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Newport, Rhode Island, then you are one of maybe one of 20 people that get that, Right? So I mean, the typical thing is, where's the Football Hall of Fame? Akron, Ohio, the whole thing. And then the one the first one I tried to stump him on where is the Tennis Hall of Fame and then the next one I stumps everyone. Where is the roller skating Hall of Fame?

Andrew Friedman: That I went to.  

Paul Kalemkiarian: That is a tuff one. It is a it is in only Nebraska, okay. the reason that my brother lives there. So what the heck? 

Andrew Friedman: Yes.

Paul Kalemkiarian: But yeah, we have apparently we have mutual you have a very good friend and he's an acquaintance of mine chef bento from will bento and Lincoln and per se. He's your neighbor?

Andrew Friedman: Yeah, Jonathan Bento is my good friend and my neighbor. We lived six houses from each other. And my wife and I in our twin teenagers actually live in the house that Jonathan and his wife Liz had initially rented as like a trial balloon for this town that we all live in. 

Paul Kalemkiarian: Wow. 

Andrew Friedman: Just north of the, I mean, it's just north of New York City. It's about 18 miles from Midtown Manhattan. And yeah! 

Paul Kalemkiarian: Cannot find any skeletons in the closet there?

Andrew Friedman: No, that's funny, the situation where I guess literally that could have happened. [03:11 Inaudible] yeah, no skeletons Jonathan's. Yeah, they're a scandal-free family.

Paul Kalemkiarian: He, I mean, I love the guy. We're friends. I mean, we're not I'm not going to talk to him or communicate with him much. But I really give him a ton of credit. He's the one that took my daughter under his wing recognized her, her work ethic. And she went to work. After she went to cooking school in New York, she went to work at Lincoln under him and wanted to be on the savory side. So she cooked online. And when he left open Leonelli and bento he brought her over to be his head luxaire. And that's where she was the chef of the baking chef of record when he got to start. And I kind of wanted to start with part of that, the importance of Michelin stars and how tragic it would be for a restaurant like his which was so great to earn a star and then get shut down. I mean, how is that? I mean, isn't the Michelin star sort of the beginning of a path?

Andrew Friedman: I was interesting first question because I don't want to disagree with you or with Milan.

Paul Kalemkiarian: I don't mind. This is controversial. It used to be.

Andrew Friedman: I don't know if it's controversial. It's funny, before we started recording, you kind of were fact-checking awards and stuff that I might have, accolades of mine. And I said, Yeah, I don't really, and I don't really care about that stuff. And I really, it's so often that a Michelin Guide comes out for a given city or state, in the US and, there's always like the kind of out of left field place that no one can believe God has starred and then, there's the kind of widely acclaimed place that no one can believe didn't get a star didn't get two stars or three stars.

Paul Kalemkiarian: I can see that.

Andrew Friedman: So much of I mean to watch over the years, so many friends of mine go through the trauma of waiting for a review or waiting for, the review cycle on a new restaurant where they're just on Red Alert all the time. And then to watch them have their sort of value, determined [05:22 inaudible] by one person's tastes to me.  [05:27 inaudible] I think the whole, over the years, I have there been critics who handle the job very responsibly is kind of a public, public service, which I think is what it is. And then I think there are critics who are kind of dead set on becoming the story themselves, and writing periodically, these kinds of discussion piece reviews. And I know, a lot of times, there's editorial pressure to do those sorts of things. And I just think what gets lost and all that is that, in any given restaurant, there's somewhere between 25 and maybe 150, people pouring their hearts into something, and when it becomes kind of sport to criticize it, that's what that gets very problematic for me.

Paul Kalemkiarian: That is a really, really, really good point. And because as a consumer, when I travel, I use various things to just like, find something right. And we've done pretty well with, with various ones, but the ones that don't do well in the public ones the yelps the Four squares? I mean, I don't know what people are looking for what their palates are, like what, how do you judge a restaurant by that, and then I agree with you 100%. I have friends here in the restaurant business that are constantly chasing Yelp reviews constantly hoping that they don't get a bad review making, I suppose maybe increases the level of service a bit because they're afraid of it. But once they get one for no particular reason, something stupid, it can really kind of devastate you and make it really difficult to deliver customers in.

Andrew Friedman: I think its fair game to evaluate a restaurant. I think its fair game for citizens to do that or professionals to do that. I think that's reasonable. I think when people start to become very obnoxious and snarky about it, it really, it just personally upsets me. 

Paul Kalemkiarian:  I'm going back to the time because I really want to talk about the books is such a great book. And I've been fortunate enough to, to actually interview on the show, three of the four on the cover photo. So, I've had Michael McCarty have had Ken Frank have had Jonathan Waxman. And now I got to find them. 

Andrew Friedman: Mark peel.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Yeah, Mark peel, somewhere out there. But I have to take a quick anecdotal story about it because I've written the book and it was mentioned to me on a podcast by Melvin master who's a very good friend of mine from, from the early wine days and today, and so I was reading the book because of his recommendation. And then I was invited to this very fancy port tasting unless Angeles and because we don't have the money to go but we're talking about ports back in the 1800s. And, and Wolfgang was cooking with Chef Puck was cooking and, and there are all these dignitaries there as far as the wine world's concerned and why I'm at the taxi stand getting ready to leave. I noticed this tall gentleman good looking guy. And, as name Texas can Frank on it. And I'm like, oh my gosh, that must be the ken Frank, which I had read about in your book. And I just kind of blurted out Oh, Mr. Frank, I have this podcast on wine, would you, would you come on the show and because of him? Because of the book, I end up in Napa? LA token. We had a great conversation on camera. He wants to do it again. So, I appreciate that.

Andrew Friedman: [08:42 Inaudible] I didn't I listened to your interview with Jonathan. I didn't hear the other two yet. But I mean, I've always found Ken to be really engaging conversationalist, someone, he's got a great memory for details. And that's great.

Paul Kalemkiarian: We, we asked you wants you to come back and do more wine. Because I guess you have the chef, the chef world, he seems to be one of the wines, one of the wine guys. So, I appreciate the fact that that this book exists and the stories are out there. It's actually kind of spirited to me into studying it more and understanding the cuisine of America and how it came about. Also with the book, The Last Days of oat cuisine by Patrick Q.

Andrew Friedman: Of that book. 

Paul Kalemkiarian: Yeah, going back to the Patreon and Henri solei and things. So, let's talk about it. We have this, in fact, Paul Friedman, the other book I'm going to sort of in the middle of just the beginning of it, he's talking about Delmonico's. He's talking about American food at the time before the French influence. And before the Monaco's. I found it fascinating because the Monaco started like in the 1850s 1840s. But I guess the scuffie is booked and come out till 1900 and until seven or something and so where did, where did this influence of French cooking arrive in America in the first place? How did it really turtle soup and some other indigenous foods so to speak, but how did this happen?

Andrew Friedman: Well, I mean for me, you just mentioned on resold a resold a and this famous restaurant the Pavilion. The story of that restaurant to me is fascinating, solely came over in 19, I believe 39 to run the French Pavilion at the World's Fair when the World's Fair was in New York, near where the US Open is held these today in Queens. And while they were over here, World War Two broke out France, of course, was invaded, occupied. And a lot of these chefs did not go home, they stayed here. So, they opened a restaurant called Lu Pavilion named, you know because the French pavilion and a lot of the, what we now think of is kind of the great old urban French restaurant certainly in New York, kind of created by founded by a lot of people who had worked at Lu Pavilion and a lot of that cooking was very faithful, you just referred to it to the Scott Fey to sort of a codified repertoire of French dishes, it wasn't very, I mean, at the time, that was totally normal. But as things kind of moved into the 60s and nouvelle cuisine became a big thing. And in France, those restaurants didn't really, keep up with the times they were very tied to tradition. And that, but that was the old guard. And to me, that was really what set the tone is of sort of French restaurants as kind of presumed sign of sophistication. pre-1970s, if you went out, you had a special occasion, you wanted to go to a fancy dinner, in a big city in America, you went to one of the two or three French restaurants, the menus were in French, and the waiters were French. And most of the time they didn't, they were kind of snooty, and they played this kind of intimidation game. And everybody was, nobody minded. I mean, it was I wish I'd been there to see it.

Paul Kalemkiarian: That would have been great. He was a tough guy right on recently like he was, he was pretty tough.

Andrew Friedman: [12:31 Inaudible] to it. Not the most, not like nefarious terms, but just I have heard him referred to and not the most affectionate terms. Yeah, that's good way to put it.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Well, last time we were in New York, we went to five West 55th to see what was there and it's the Polo lounge or a polo bar or something, just to stand in front of the address and, and say I was there anyway. Contemporarily we met something interesting in nouvelle cuisine, movement in France, which I didn't know it started in the 60s. But when you talk to people like drug use the shower, who's used it, we went down to the seashore, and we bought our fish for the day. And we went to the farmers market, but for the day. Is that the movement, the nouvelle cuisine that take that long, I guess 10 to 15 years to get to America become something new, and I guess in shape and ease is where it started. But is that the same nouvelle cuisine that we're talking about?

Andrew Friedman: Well, I don't, I mean, personally, I don't consider what shaped Newstead to be nouvelle at all, I considered that to basically be like a regional French, fairly traditional when it opened French restaurant. I think the nouvelle cuisine, so nouvelle cuisine, first of all, I mean, yes, a lot of it was based in there were these sorts of 10 commandments that some journalists put to the movement. And, one of them was this notion of seasonality, you cook in harmony with the seasons, there was a desire to move away from the incredibly heavy use of butter and cream and fat to move away from that, although in reality most of that stuff by today's standards would still be considered pretty indulgent and unhealthy. but the big thing to me was that the Thomas Keller has this phrase he uses to refer to what is personality food, people started to break away from the Escoffier, a playbook and come up with their own dishes, what we would now call signature dishes. that seems like such a, that's you expect that from any decent chef today, but that was a new thing. You mentioned Ken Frank a few minutes ago. Ken it's such a great illustrator story. It's in the book, that when he was, I had an early job in Los Angeles. There were two dishes that he put up the menu that were his own dishes, one was a, I think duck with Calvin house or something like that. And I think the other was a sweet bread dish. And the rest of the menu was very, stuff you would have could have found in any other, French leaning restaurant. And they had to they asterisk, those dishes on the menu, and they had footnote on the menu that said, these dishes are the chef's own creation, right? 

Paul Kalemkiarian: Well, well.

Andrew Friedman: If customers saw these unfamiliar, they were like, well, I don't know what that is. And that was that was, that was new!

Paul Kalemkiarian: That's interesting. That's right, frankly, right down the street from her.

Andrew Friedman: What is the joke?

Paul Kalemkiarian: No, the before October when he worked at camera, the name it was in Pasadena was a local boy.

Andrew Friedman: Oh, yeah. I don't remember it offhand. [15:46 Inaudible] Yeah, I just love that story. I just have always loved that story.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Well, You Write in the book about he was sort of a cantankerous guy back then he was sort of the hard-nosed and not part of the party group. And would not hang out till two o'clock in the morning or three in the morning, doing all the things they were doing, and then coming back in the morning and cooking. And I found a very pleasant, we had a great time and invited me back up to do it again. So, I thought, I thought that was quite ironic compared to what the message was in the book. So, this type of reflection, and they asked you the question, because this is what the way Patrick put it. And I want to see if you agree with it.

Andrew Friedman: Is it about Patrick? Try? 

Paul Kalemkiarian: I had Patrick do no. But Patrick Hughes, Patrick Hughes's book sort of talks about how societies dictate what they want to eat. And I don't not sure I get that. After finishing your book is more about the chef's trying things and people liking them and deciding that that's what they want to eat. So, is it or is the restaurant trade a reflection of society as time for convenience, for quality for flavors for whatever?

Andrew Friedman: Yeah, I mean, I kind of don't. I've never met Patrick; I don't I don't want to disagree with them. 

Paul Kalemkiarian: No, I don't disagree. 

Andrew Friedman: No, no, but all I would say is I don't consider it an either-or situation. I think at different times, it's been different things. I think at the time, that I write about, in my book, it was very much like, an unspoken sort of packed almost between diner and Chef, I mean, Jonathan talks about in the book, how, Michaels, they would try new stuff all the time. And sometimes he knew he was putting out a failure, on a given day. But the customers were so excited about what was happening. And these young chefs and they all have their own style. And one night you're going to go here and eat this kind of food. And then one night you're going to go to eat Wolfgang Puck's food, and then you're going to go have Jonathan's Chicken, with famous chicken and fries. And then one night, you're going to go to the late Michael Roberts, his restaurant which was called Trump's no relation to Donald Trump and eat this incredibly eclectic food. These are all people who were at... One day, you're going to go to Mary Sue, and Susan's place and have their, very eclectic, global cuisine that they were doing it the city. And customers were so swept up in that, that it was kind of it was kind of a joint effort, I think and I would even say the third party to the conspiracy was the journalists and I very much if you talk to what Ruth Rachel, if you talk to a Coleman Andrews, who was covering this thing in real-time, very deeply and they were very friendly with all these people in a way that I don't think any journalists of their caliber would be allowed to be today. They'll tell you, there was no divide, there was no like church and state wall between the chefs and the writers. They were all sort of these proselytizing foodies. Who were trying to make something happen in this country.

Paul Kalemkiarian: I'm glad you brought them up. 

Andrew Friedman: Who the journalist?

Paul Kalemkiarian: Coleman Android has come on the show. 

Andrew Friedman: Yeah, I mean, but these, I think that whole all three of those constituencies we're trying to make something happen together. I think at other times, it's been very different. I think you're, we're about to probably see a lot of new concepts that are going to be a reflection of this trauma we've all been through with COVID. I think we're going to see both for practical reasons of distancing and the fear of a recurrence or something that might, force people to you have different kind of models and, and constructs, their physical space. I think you're going to see things like a food truck explosion coming up, I think you're going to see real outside the box concepts, I think you're going to see stripped-down, places that take much less money to build, that to me is a reflection of the times but 70s 80s I think, at least certainly in the big cities and the in the cities that I write about in that book, I really think it was a bunch of people who were all swept up in food as kind of a cultural happening, you know? [20:12 Inaudible] and yeah, and I've always felt like, to me the idea for the book was that there are a couple of most of them are all oral histories. But there's a couple of books that I've always loved about that time period there was a book called EZ riders, raging bulls, which was about how old Hollywood became New Hollywood, it was about like Spielberg and Lucas and Scorsese and Coppola, when they were coming up, there was a book called, please kill me about punk rock. There was a book called life from New York about Saturday Night Life and how comedy was changing at that time. To me, this book was of a piece with those, I'm not saying it's as good as those books. I love all those books. But I really did come to this first and foremost wanting to look at who are these people, it was this to me. This book is barely about the food. To me, it was about the chef's, it was about these.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Shirts.

Andrew Friedman: On, they end up doing what they were doing, which was never something that you would have ever dreamed of doing. As an American kid prior to this time period. I mean, nobody grew up wanting to be in a kitchen in the United States.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Or the triad. So you're saying the triad of the consumer, the chef, and the press, sort of, in cahoots, together with this propagating this, this movement, which is I think, such an important movement, and kind of goes back to like, well, if you go back to the French restaurants have time to grow, and the plant and plantain and Mkuze and a lot of Chappelle, Chappelle, those guys, you It seems to me that this is a movement away from that, and trying to do something different and free-spirited and I had a winemaker here. Jacques Olivier, who said, that's the beauty of the New World, we have new things to do you, you can express yourself, no, you're not bound by Burgundy, you're bound by Bordeaux traditions. You've got an open palette. And so, it's interesting to me that all these guys went to France to work. Waxman was there even Patrick Q is there? They all came, Wolfgang was there, he was there. I mean, Michael McCarthy was there, right? They go back and get the traditional training. And then they come and they say, we want to try something new. We want to express ourselves with food. And then that, and then the consumer going, huh, this is pretty fun.

Andrew Friedman: Yeah, right. This is cool.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Check this out. 

Andrew Friedman: Yeah, I mean, the whole thing was kind of born of not accepting tradition, right? Like it was, I don't know, I don't want to be a doctor or a lawyer. I want to be a cook. and then you go and train and then I think that same Spirit led these people once they trained to kind of, break all those, break all those rules and start doing it their own way. I mean, the French thing, whether you, whether you went to work for a French chef in a place like New York, or you went overseas to go eat a lot of the some of the people you're talking about went overseas and went to like what Cordon Bleu or.

Paul Kalemkiarian: [23:15 Inaudible]. 

Andrew Friedman: You know? Yeah, one of these cooking schools, but they also did what we would now call stooges over there, these unpaid apprenticeships or internships. But that was the only way you could learn the technique in it, but again, I don't, it's not one size fits all, like in Northern California. I think there's an awful lot of people who learned on the job. I think that was the spirit of what was going on. In Berkeley, it was this kind of come as you are, situation. I think they were much more willing to take some enthusiastic young food lover and just teach them.

Paul Kalemkiarian: That's an interesting point. Because you, you're so close. I think in the podcast, I listened. You're talking about how your friends are all chefs. I mean, you're not that's what they're not authors that, that you hang out with. You hang out with chefs, that's what they do. And when my daughter and my daughter graduated from college, she wanted to become she want to bake. We said you're going to finish college first. And then you'll figure it out what she found in the sasho. And France, she found a lambda classes, pastry school, she went there, she cooked in Paris for a little bit. She actually cooked for him a little bit and came to America. And then she went she, she decided that she was going to go to New York, we didn't know at the time she was chasing somebody. Okay, so she ended up her, her husband. She wanted to go to New York, and she ended up at ICC. But when she got there, she was at prune. And they offered her a job. And she calls back to her parents, me and my wife, and says, I'm not going to go to school now. I'm not going to go to cooking school I'm just going to work at prune and I, I busted a gasket. Like what do you mean we sent you out there not knowing again, she was chasing somebody but, no, you're going to go do the school thing. And then you can go to prune. And so, she was testing yourself and she didn't do it. But that's an interesting point about some chefs just work their way into it, they have talent, once they've worked the line for a few years, whatever they're doing, and they get some responsibility inside the kitchen, the work and they don't have to go to school to do it, you can be you can, you can learn on your feet, as well as, learn the techniques through cookies.

Andrew Friedman: Very fat, it's a really fascinating subject, I think there are some people who for whatever reason they don't want to be conspicuous. They don't want to be the new person who doesn't know how to do anything. They like to come into a situation feeling totally ready for it. So, though a lot of those people, those are people who do who cooking school, I think makes a lot of sense for.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Yeah.

Andrew Friedman:  They want to have that foundation before they set foot in the kitchen. There are people who are quick studies who've done a ton of cooking at home, who become very proficient at home, who can maybe hold their own on day one in a patient kitchen, that's going to bring them up from like, prep cook, to line cook to whatever else, but the other thing is also, I mean, it's the individual style of shops. And one reason I think in the, in the back in the day, that you could most realistically get trained on the job in a place like the Bay Area is the Bay Area, by and large, the restaurants were much less concerned with kind of, what the knife I like to refer to, knife fork and pyrotechnics. Like they weren't that concerned with how perfect your brew was, was, you know.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Right.

Andrew Friedman: Wasn't what's going on. And Berkeley, LA, a little more concerned in the New York like, super concerned.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Yeah. 

Andrew Friedman: Right, So, yeah!

Paul Kalemkiarian: That's interesting. 

Andrew Friedman: Yeah. 

Paul Kalemkiarian: Well, [26:53 inaudible].

Andrew Friedman: And I won't see the point I'm making, I actually was made to me by a lot of people who came up in the Bay Area, who said, they had a little bit of an inferiority complex around chefs from New York City, and it was just based around technique they just didn't know, they just weren't as proficient in a lot of technique. I mean, it doesn't mean they didn't have great palettes. It doesn't mean they didn't cook great food; it doesn't mean they didn't have restaurants that you wanted to go to on Saturday night, it was just a different style!

Paul Kalemkiarian: Do you think that this movement that you read about the book, where this free spirit, I mean, look, let's talk about the 70s and 80s, Anyway, I worked in corporate America, in the 80s, early 80s. And I mean, it was a pretty freewheeling place stuff that you could never ever get away with today was going on in the halls of places like Xerox and IBM, where I worked, so.

Andrew Friedman: Like before smartphones. 

Paul Kalemkiarian: Yeah, exactly. I mean, it was. It's a whole different podcast. But the idea of chiefdom, Wolfgang, I think it's a new book, or it's just one other book that he talks about getting an elevator and or he's at a party, and he tells a woman that he's a chef, and she like, walked away from him. And so.

Andrew Friedman: The dance that's in that, that's the opening scene of the book!

Paul Kalemkiarian: Yeah.

Andrew Friedman: Where he's at a disco.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Yeah. 

Andrew Friedman: And he finishes a slow dance with some woman he'd never met before. And she says, what are you doing? And he says, I'm a chef, and she walks. She walks away.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Yeah, Okay, so that but that was real! I mean, this happened to her. 

Andrew Friedman: Yeah!

Paul Kalemkiarian: We know it's real. But the idea of being a chef in America was, you're a cook, they just thought you were a cook, the guy behind the counter with the, with the net on your head.

Andrew Friedman: And anonymous and anonymous.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Right.

Andrew Friedman: I mean, it was basically considered, not there's nothing wrong with an honest day's work, but it was basically considered menial labor.

Paul Kalemkiarian: So, at that point, that's the baseline. Right. We're in America. And that's who we are. Wolfgang's already here. Mr. Pecan, come welcome. We're not that close. Chef buck is already here. And he goes to work with Petra Ray. And Petra Ray, with his legacy and Twitter, john and his uncle or grandfather, you know kind of credits the idea of bringing the chef to the front house. At that point. Is that sort of the beginning of what we think now is, well, eventually turned into like TV star chefs. I mean, everybody seems to be all the kids that go to cooking school now think they're going to be on the Food Network and that's why they go but is that the beginning of all this? The idea of a chef in America? 

Andrew Friedman: Was Wolfgang the beginning of all that?

Paul Kalemkiarian: Yeah, the Petro are bringing them to the front house. Is that the area that that started happening?

Andrew Friedman: Oh, for sure. It's that time period. Yeah. I mean, one of the fascinating things about researching chef's drugs and rock'n'roll was that really until the early-mid 80s, like 83, 84, 85. What was happening in these different this is really talking about life before smartphones, right? Like, and before the internet and before anybody was really paying attention to chefs, or really even restaurants as like a cultural phenomenon. There wasn't a lot of connectivity between the main hubs of this movement. So, when Patrick says that, yeah, in LA, that's probably was Patrick and Wolfgang, they each will tell you different versions of.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Of course.

Andrew Friedman: Of how Wolfgang became so prominent and you can't really have that conversation without talking about Wolfgang's ex-wife, Barbara Lazarof, who was also part of the fuel that made that fire happen. But in San Francisco, not long after Wolfgang was taking off and actually, before Spargo certainly, Jeremiah tower had become a name, for his work at shape and nice. That's largely forgotten now, but he was very well known in the early days there. And then, nobody thinks about New Orleans really that much but Paul Perdomo, who was had been the chef at commander's palace and then had opened Kay Paul's, which was his own place. And it was this kind of literally larger than life like this foul, stuffy and bearded, personality, but he was probably doing national television even before Wolfgang was to be honest. Not a ton of it, but was doing it. Prod Rome was able to stage what we would now call pop ups; I didn't have a name for it back then.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Wow!

Andrew Friedman: It brought his restaurant to San Francisco for a period of time, a couple weeks limited period of time, and then did the same thing in New York. nobody was doing that back then. I mean, nobody.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Saw cutting edge of new. 

Andrew Friedman: Yeah! So, I don't give it to... I would say, kudos, Wolfgang. And Jeremiah, to my mind, were probably the three people I'm trying to think if there's anyone comparable in New York, and actually, I don't think there was that early. But to me, in terms of what we would now call a quote unquote, celebrity chef, I think probably those three were the first to do it. And not by accident, they all either they or their partners, sorted out right, push for it.

Paul Kalemkiarian: What does he has for you? When I was reading your book, and we've talked about the first Spargo, the one upstairs on Sunset, and then you talk about the overlooking, we know what Sunset Boulevard was at the time, which is kind of outdoor brothel. So, what? But I have to tell you something.

Andrew Friedman: I wish I had that phrase in my mind when I [32:43 Inaudible] I liked that.

Paul Kalemkiarian: I have an EMT doctor here that his name is Alex Mark Arian guy. And I'm talking to doctor he says, yeah, my grandfather, and my father owned restaurants. And my grandfather owned restaurants throughout the world called cop cars. And it was China, Russia, Brazil, Argentina, and landed in new in, in Hollywood in Hollywood. Like, really? That's kind of like, oh, wait a minute. So, then I'm reading your book. And then Patrick q talks about a little bit. I said, wait a minute, I said, did that become Spargo? He goes, Yeah, he was How'd you know? I said, well, I'm just reading the book. So, then I started reading his grandfather's story about how he landed in Hollywood, which is amazing story, like crossing the Bering Strait to get to China and chasing, getting chased by the Russians. I mean, the whole thing is a phenomenal story. So, because of your book, and because of having being a poor tasting, Chef Puck was sitting at a table by himself. And I thought, well, I'm not going to walk up to them say, hey, I love your food, you know? So, I said, I said, I want to talk to you about Comcast, his face changed. He says, I'd go back in the kitchen and Marian, the wife would say, please, Chef, get me out of here. He was my husband in the front, smooth and everybody and I'm out here cooking. And so that became the first spot. It seems to be a warm spot, a warm spot in his heart. Having started all that with it, which let's talk about that for a second. Your book does a great job of that first night, talking about the first night and they hadn't even practice. They weren't the chefs', the cooks weren't even sure what was on the menu. They just, they weren't even prepared to know what it was the look like on the plate. And then it skyrocketed to success. Tell me about a little bit about that.

Andrew Friedman: Well, I mean, Spargo it's so often, there's always this comparison between theater and restaurants. I did a lot of theater in high school in college. And when I hear about the opening a Spargo, it always reminds me of the last dress rehearsals for every high school and college production I ever did. Because you were still you were still like, putting up props. And Phil, you were still getting your dance moves down. And in the show was like less than 24 hours away, you're going to be in front of ticket holders. And that's what Spada was, like it came together incredibly fast. this is before you would think to hire like a PR firm or something like that. It was also before you can't it's so hard for people to get this, right? And listen, I was alive before the internet. It's almost hard for me to really conjure up how inconvenient life was. But they opened this restaurant and who knew who was going to how would you know who was going to show up? you heard about it. You don't know. You didn't know how many likes it got on Instagram. You didn't. 

Paul Kalemkiarian: That's right.

Andrew Friedman: You don't have no idea [35:46 inaudible] so they opened this restaurant. And they had told a bunch of their friends and please come, we don't want to be empty on our first night. And, Nancy Silverton was the pastry chef. And she talks about running out of all, everything she had prepped was gone, they didn't have anything left for the next day. I mean, that's how busy it got. But the build up to it, Mark Peale, who was basically I don't know what his official title was today, you would call him like the maybe Chef de Cuisine or executive sous chef. He was Wolfgang's first lieutenant in that kitchen. Mark says they were, hammering the last nail at five o'clock. And then the first guests came in at 5:30. That may be true, but Mark also talks about the wolf gang finished the menu so close to service that they just had it, like, pinned up over the kitchen line. So at least, Mark put it was at least they could get all the ingredients.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Yeah.

Andrew Friedman: As promise, into the dish, but...

Paul Kalemkiarian: You're right.

Andrew Friedman:  there was no, yeah, you're right. There was no set plating of the different did I'm sure that all happened over the course of a night or two. But yeah!

Paul Kalemkiarian: Phenomenal.

Andrew Friedman: It was very fly by the seat of their pants. And, they were mobbed on night one, and they didn't see it coming. And I think that's an incredibly important moment. You mentioned Patrick Tray, a minute ago, Patrick was the owner of a restaurant called mommy zone, which was dying, and he went and found a fit felt like he needed a chef to bring it back to life. I found Wolfgang, and, the kind of big chef, the chapter that tells the Wolfgang's story in my book, it's called New World Order. And, the world pre spargo more or less was a world run by restaurant tours, as the impresarios who are known. It wasn't the chef, the chef was expendable. And are so it seemed and, Wolfgang gets famous and goes off and leaves mommy zone and does spargo and becomes To this day, an international superstar at mommy zone doesn't last the decade.

Paul Kalemkiarian: That's interesting, [38:11 inaudible].

Andrew Friedman: That's to me is a real that is a demarcation line right there.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Yeah.

Andrew Friedman: For the that spotlight going, from the owner of Presario to the chef, and it was a lot of tension around, Michael's restaurant in Santa Monica, the guys on the cover of my book, Michael was the owner, the chef was initially Ken Frank and then very quickly, he left and Jonathan Waxman became the chef, but even that! There was a lot of tension around who was getting the juice in the press!

Paul Kalemkiarian: Well, Kim tells you, I don't think I ever saw Michael in the kitchen doing anything!

Andrew Friedman: That's become an interesting. Well, you had McCarty, I know.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Yeah, I did. Right. And didn't bring that up, of course, but.

Andrew Friedman: Well, Michael now says that, Chef means chief and I never wanted to be on the line in the kitchen, and I think Miko tried to play it down the middle. On the cover of my book, there's four people dressed as chefs, Michael is one of them.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Yup [39:13 Inaudible]. 

Andrew Friedman: He did conceive a lot of that food or co conceive it with his chefs. But the reality is during service, he was working the dining room when his Armani suits I mean, he doesn't deny that today.

Paul Kalemkiarian: No he don't.

Andrew Friedman: I think the issue is how much he tried to portray himself as chef back at that time. And different all I the book I put, there's a couple of times where I felt like, I had to just give everybody's point of view because it was so.

Paul Kalemkiarian: That's great. 

Andrew Friedman: It well different and I do have ball for those guys have their own sort of, they all have a different story about how Ken Frank left the restaurant? 

Paul Kalemkiarian: Yep. Man, that's a great perspective for the book. You don't feel like you're taking a myopic view of it. You're you get to hear what they have to say. And I can have those conversations. This guy's because of that the viewpoint? Was there camaraderie, then? compared to now, amongst chef.

Andrew Friedman: Yeah.

Paul Kalemkiarian: There was a cop.

Andrew Friedman: [40:11 Inaudible] within a restaurant or within the industry?

Paul Kalemkiarian: Industry. 

Andrew Friedman: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, there's an, it's kind of the pivot point of the whole book. About midway through the book, there's a chapter called the Stanford court gang, which is about this. It was like, in normal, what I was doing, when the book came out three years ago, and I was doing a lot of events, I would always say, there's probably three events like this happening in whatever city I was in. I would say there's probably three events happening like this in town tonight. I can't say that right now, because we're still living with Covid. But, that was kind of the first of its kind in 1983, the first of its kind, kind of a collaborative tasting menu, benefit dinner. It was at the Stanford court hotel, on that Top of Nob Hill in San Francisco. And all these what we would now think of as Mount Rushmore figures showed up and did a collaborative dinner. And it was Jonathan Waxman and Jeremiah tower and Mark Miller, and Alice Waters, and from the Midwest, Jimmy Schmidt and Brad Ogden, Larry for Joan from New York City, Paul pre-owned from New Orleans. And, all the people involved in that dinner, I interviewed all the surviving ones for the book, I missed the, I miss being able to interview prodrome he unfortunately passed away while I was working on the book. But they all will tell you that, that was the night that they realized they were part of something bigger.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Wow!

Andrew Friedman: A lot they didn't understand that.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Yeah.

Andrew Friedman: What it was going on in their little town or their city in their immediate area. That was also happening in these little pockets all over the country. So at that time, yeah, once these people started meeting each other, I mean, the camaraderie was amazing, because they realize that they were part of something. 

Paul Kalemkiarian: Well, you don't know you're making history, and you're making it Right?

Andrew Friedman: Right. And they were live, but they were also living, a lot of these people, their families thought they were crazy for doing what they did. People thought friends and relatives thought they were weird for doing it. It was a lonely path, you know? And so to find out that, there are all these people out there who had been having this exact same moment, like I kind of I don't remember the movie, close encounters. 

Paul Kalemkiarian: Oh, yeah!

Andrew Friedman: [42:34 Inaudible] the third guy, there's all these people around the country. And for whatever reason, in their mind, they can't get this image of Devils Mountain out of their head.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Right.

Andrew Friedman: And like, one person is constantly drawing it. And, Richard Dreyfus is kind of building it out of like, mashed potatoes at the dinner table. And then they all meet at, and I feel like that's what it was like, at that time. All these people were having. Amazingly, we're discovering this path in their own way in different places. Well.

Paul Kalemkiarian: I definitely sense at least today, because I wasn't around enough. And my parents who I grew up here, and I don't remember any of the restaurants, frankly, because I live the beach. But there is a Fraternal Order about it, for sure. And it's a fascinating camaraderie today, at least what I've sensed, and when I hear those stories, it's inspiring to be at least part of understanding what happened in through your book and through their stories that it was a freewheeling part of the part of America and creating part of America at that time. And it's, I want to talk a little bit because we're going to get on some time here, but I want to talk a little bit to your post Covid comment that you made, I will say just anecdotally, not at all, but actually, sadly, during the riots and I'm very close to micro Korean. Nancy Silverton's friend, and so I'm watching the news. And I see him running around trying to talk to the fire department. And while people had gone into Motiva and just squirted it with lighter fluid and just lit it on fire. And here's this poor woman who has been through so much and contributed so much to cuisine in America and baking, and inspired my daughter who told Jonathan bento, look, Jonathan, well, you can't be both. And she goes, Nancy did so and he goes, well, more power to you. If you could be like, Nancy but it's so sad to watch this. This restaurant get just torched. And after all, she's lost over the time. And the even, what's his name? The fun guy that took her money. I mean, just I was.

Andrew Friedman: Yeah, she was, She was a big made up. She was a big made off. 

Paul Kalemkiarian: Yeah, right.

Andrew Friedman: Yep.

Paul Kalemkiarian: I was talking to Eric Asimov, also and he made a comment, which I never thought about and I want to get your opinion on this. Because, talk about the COVID post, COVID world and the margins in restaurants suck, right? I mean, let's face it, you have to be around for a long time and establish yourself and we have a restaurant here called me pIace Pasadena's my wife's first cousins, 30 something years, serving tutoria. The cutting edge but nouvelle and that's really rare in America. And before I get to the real civic, but you go to I have a book called the famous French, famous French chefs from the 70s. And I went through the book and looked at the restaurant while I wrote it, we mentioned them, a lot of those restaurants are still around and they're still there. They're handed to the next generation or the next generation of chef either in the family or out of the family, but they're still around still, as prominent as they were is. Do you have a theory on why that doesn't happen as much in America as it does in those root rooted countries like France?

Andrew Friedman: Wow! That's a good question. I hadn't really thought about it. I mean, I think part of it may just boil down to the fact that we are a...

Paul Kalemkiarian: Business.

Andrew Friedman: Younger, or younger country and the food thing here, having homegrown restaurants here. I mean, they're always been kind of the local places and whatever. But in terms of prominent restaurants, I feel like that is starting to happen. It's just, there's not much, canlis in Seattle, I think it's now a third generation restaurant. Commander's Palace in New Orleans is a second generation restaurant at this point.

Paul Kalemkiarian: There you go. That's right. 

Andrew Friedman: So it does happen. I just think we don't. I mean, the restaurant scene here doesn't go back hundreds of years. 

Paul Kalemkiarian: That's true. I was thinking.

Andrew Friedman: The way we think of it today. I mean, I'm sure there's hundreds of restaurants in this country, you know.

Paul Kalemkiarian: That's true.

Andrew Friedman: The city and City X or Town X that are, I've been in the same family for generations. They're not the ones that get all the ink and the attention. But, in terms of what, let's say destination restaurants, I just think it's because that's a relatively new deal. All these people in my book but the amazing thing to me is probably 80% of them, 85% of them. These are people I'm writing about coming of age. You just mentioned Nancy Silverton. Nancy Silverton, who just opened a restaurant in the last week or so in Los Angeles. She was cooking professionally, training and jobs in Northern California in the 70s!

Paul Kalemkiarian: That is a really good point.

Andrew Friedman: You see her today. And like, she doesn't look like someone who's been I mean, they all started as kids basically. 

Paul Kalemkiarian: Right. 

Andrew Friedman: But, we're not that many of these people shuffled off yet. But I think you will see more generational places. 

Paul Kalemkiarian: No, but that's a good point. 

Andrew Friedman: Yeah.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Does it have to be under one roof? Really, you're just talking about generational there. She's still cooking, Java's still cooking, he hasn't wouldn't commit that Barbados coming back. But I suppose that's a better way to look at is that the generations of chef are still out there doing their work and that's...

Andrew Friedman: Our first generation of great chefs. Right, I think are still a lot of them are still doing it. And I think the canlis and commander's palace examples are pretty good ones.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Yeah.

Andrew Friedman: You know of ones that kind of got handed down?

Paul Kalemkiarian: Well, spargo, I mean, the thing about it, I was a spargo, I don't know, pre COVID. So he took me there. And when he's there, when chef is there, he's out on the floor and you feel special. You may not know him, he didn't know me from Adam, at that point, he'll come to the table, you'll actually have the food was she'll engage in a conversation. I went to a champagne tasting there about a year and a half ago, and he came out there because a Luffy thing and sat with us for a little while talk with us. And so I think that kind of engagement and sort of, I don't know, front house service from, from the chef is one of the formulas, the camaraderie that's formed between the consumer and the chef by doing that. So Eric was saying that and I had never thought this and I thought, wow, this is an important statistic. He says something like 90% of food consumed, out of the house in America is probably fast food or corporate food.

Andrew Friedman: Okay.

Paul Kalemkiarian:  And we were talking about in your book talks about in you're in the places you and I like to go or chef centric? We want to experience that right and most America doesn't feel that way. They're going to go to lobster, I say it this way. 

Andrew Friedman: Yeah, there's no way they could care. They could care less about it. Yeah, I think that's true.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Just like, when it comes to the wine world, it's kind of the same thing. If I asked 100,000 people in America to drink wine, according to the wine Institute, you'd get 25,000 raise their hand, which is great. Except that includes the person that goes to the Olive Garden orders the house Ki ante, he drinks wine or she drinks wine, they raise their hand, but that's not a candidate for what I do. Same with the woman in front of me the other day at the market with her Magnum of Sauvignon Blanc from Sutter home for 49 years. She's raised her hand she drinks wine, but she's not a candidate. So just because you go out doesn't mean you're candidates to experience this. Where do you, is there a trigger in your mind as to what constitute corporate food? So I mean, what I mean by that is, you've got Danny Meyer with Shake Shack and you've got but he's got a Union Square cafe, you've got daily provisions where my daughter just did a stint. You know that all feels homey. Fresh, on unmeasured that sort of speak right? Is there some kind of for you a trigger that says, Well, this just doesn't feel like it's the chef in the back really cares that much. They're just cooking the food and put it on the plate. So is there some kind of trigger?

Andrew Friedman: I don't know! You know some people, some companies have gotten really good.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Pre made sauces, brands.

Andrew Friedman: Mass producing food, there's a... it's so funny. I had a meeting in the city the other day I live in, I live north of New York City in Westchester County. And I had to go in for a meeting. And I had an I just, it's one of those days at a busy morning I had it I was on the train, I realized I hadn't eaten anything. Like it was like noon, you hadn't had anything to eat. And I also hadn't been to Grand Central Station in months because of COVID.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Right? 

Andrew Friedman: And I got in and I thought, Oh, I wonder if hale and hearty soup is open. So I don't even know if they exist outside New York. But Halen hearty soup it's a chain, and they sell soup. And, but they have a couple of soup, they do a mulligatawny soup that is outstanding! and I'm sure it gets produced. I don't even know what the quantity how many, you know?

Paul Kalemkiarian: Yeah.

Andrew Friedman: Hundreds of gallon, I don't know how they do it, but they have it down! and it tastes awesome. I don't know, if corporate food is an automatic there's [52:35 Inaudible] Oh yeah, there are these companies that are doing, producing very, what would be a word for quality or virtuous? Here, they're using quality ingredients. And they've gotten it to taste good. And they a lot of these things have shorter shelf life or shorter or quick or expiration dates, if it's refrigerated stuff. 

Paul Kalemkiarian: Right, yes.

Andrew Friedman: I don't know that, that corporate necessarily means crap. 

Paul Kalemkiarian: Yeah!

Andrew Friedman: I mean, forgive me, forgive my language. I don't know! I don't know that it's necessarily the worst thing in the world anymore. I mean, nobody had a problem with Chipotle until they had those, bacterial issues a few years ago, which it seems like they've gotten solved. But Chipotle was, I don't know if people know this. Chipotle is a good example. And that was founded by a guy named Steve Ells. Steve was a cook. Its Jeremiah towers, restaurant stars.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Really? Wow, that's really interesting. 

Andrew Friedman: Yeah!

Paul Kalemkiarian: I love to. Boy, you're right. 

Andrew Friedman: This is what I mean. Like that restaurant, kind of, what else is talked in interviews about the influence of, an outside the box thinker like tower? And, I don't think people think but there I haven't done a deep dive into it. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I always found the food there seem relatively clean. You know?

Paul Kalemkiarian: It feels fresh. 

Andrew Friedman: Yeah!

Paul Kalemkiarian: I kind of want to feel like you're being treated properly. And, there's not, I'll never forget, I went to an Applebee's. Once here in Los Angeles. I don't know why I went there. But I went into the kitchen and there was like, 15, microwaves, across the top. And, my daughter when she was starching in New York, she started like, I'm not going to name the restaurant of Susan thrown under the bus. But, the first thing they asked her to do is microwave the kale to make kale chips. And she's like, and there's something important about that, because when she was trained in Paris, in France, and working in Paris, the French kitchen is a very clean, scrubbed kitchen. And she, having been trained there I think is a really important part of her career. Having been trained in those conditions. You can eat off the floor at any given time. I had said I was a short order cook for a while and he could not eat off the floor that I was cooking. But for her the kitchen is so important that it's that is speaking span, and it's properly tended to during the process of service. So I wanted to ask you about a restaurant called Omar high in the rainbow?

Andrew Friedman: No.

Paul Kalemkiarian: San Francisco, kind of during the time of arenas. 

Andrew Friedman: Okay.

Paul Kalemkiarian: I suppose. And Omar Cheyenne was an Armenian guy who his name was George bar deaky. And it was a very huge film philanthropist. He brought over Armenians from, after the war, like 250, like 10,000 of them and organize their transport and their sponsorship. And so the reason I brought up was that's how I learned about Andrew Coleman. Let me call on Andrews, he, I was talking to Bruce Myers, who is a very famous old school, Napa winemaker. And I brought it up with him and I said he goes, he's the one who told me I need to call Coleman Andrews GM on the show. And he introduced me to him but he I said you Remember all my clients? He said? He goes Hell yeah! He goes you got a free meal if you wore your uniform. So Georgia so Ty he George became Eisenhower's. I'm not going to say Chef de Cuisine, but he was sent all over the world to change the menus at all the commissaries on all the bases in the world, Korea, Germany, you name it, and he was sent there and he would teach these guys how to make food with stuff they had that was better what they're doing and change the ambience of the canteen and the whole thing. And I brought it up because at some point, the owner of Kavkaz. Wolfgang puck's, first restaurant met George Mark Deakin in San Francisco, because Kavkaz was in San Francisco to before it was in Hollywood. And I find this these connections phenomenal and you must dig them up all the time that just like you said, Shadbolty, the owner creator worked for Jeremy Jeremiah at the shaping east. I mean, is it kind of small world that way?

Andrew Friedman: Oh, I mean, if you go back to this time, I wrote about the I did, Ruth rifle was nice enough to do a live talk with me the week my book came out, I was going to be in LA promoting it. And she spends her winters there. And we did a live talks la together, and she talks about in one point, she said, there were like, 10 people in the United States who were interested in food. So that is how she described it right? So, yeah it was really tight group. And now, working on the book, I mean, this is the kind of thing writers live for, like there's a story in the book, someone tells about this very awkward moment. At recirc, where somebody, gets fired, on the spot. And this one chef gets kind of like a battlefield promotion, do a job they're not really prepared for, and then I was interviewing somebody else for the book, who had also worked at Masaryk. And the person was like, oh, yeah, when they let on so and so left, I took their spot on the line, and this is.

Paul Kalemkiarian: That is the way it works.

Andrew Friedman: Where it goes. 

Paul Kalemkiarian: That is the way it works.

Andrew Friedman: I mean this is, but this is like, almost 40 years ago!

Paul Kalemkiarian: Yeah, wow!

Andrew Friedman: That's how small Yeah, that's crazy.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Yeah, that is something.

Andrew Friedman:  And I do still get emails from, people who read the book, who, they tell me all the kitchens they worked in and who they knew. And you know?

Paul Kalemkiarian: That's.

Andrew Friedman: Yeah. 

Paul Kalemkiarian: That, that is pretty cool. So what's next for Andrew Friedman?

Andrew Friedman: Well, I'm producing my own, I'm doing my show. 

Paul Kalemkiarian: Podcast is. Paul Kalemkiarian and

Andrew Friedman: Andrew talks to chefs. 

Andrew Friedman: I sold my next book to HarperCollins. It's a little premature for me to talk about it.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Okay.

Andrew Friedman: But I will say it's in contrast to chef's drugs and rock and roll. It is a very it's super contemporary. It's kind of a snapshot of the current American chef and restaurant scene, told through the prism of one restaurant. I'll put it that way. I mean, it's a...

Paul Kalemkiarian: Cool, very cool.

Andrew Friedman: There's a more specific concept than that, but I'd rather not get into that. And then I'm pushing some entertainment stuff along. I'm still trying, I've been trying for three years with different teams of producers to get a doc documentary series based on chef's drugs and rock and roll off the ground. And.

Paul Kalemkiarian: [59:44 Inaudible].

Andrew Friedman:  It says it's a Sisyphean endeavor like we keep pushing the rock up the hill.

Paul Kalemkiarian: That's right.

Andrew Friedman: But there are still people period, production companies periodically have shown an interest in trying to make it happen. And, yeah, and that's it, but very happily busy after what we've all been through him. Very, very, very lucky to be working as much as I am.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Yes. I can't complain, we had a great, actually, my sales have kind of thought fall off the cliff, because the internet marketing has changed so much, but we were certainly doing better than we would have been if COVID didn't exist, but COVID was very good to the, direct to consumer wine business.

Andrew Friedman: Yeah.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Would never heard about that. But fascinating conversation and I hope we could do it again because I want to do want to get into the post COVID restaurant. He made some interesting points. Joking, please shall has his commissary kitchen here he's been working on. There are things popping up with his multiple kitchens in one place in salt pickup and delivery. And I mean, I frankly I'm so tired of door dash and Post mates and all that I just can't take it any longer. And so I'm just cooking all the time because my wife and I just we're empty nesters down, but I just can't stop My call that stuff all the time. But I am interested to hear as this happens to reconvene and sort of discuss that after your next book comes out and see what see what's false. What's the vault?

Andrew Friedman: Yeah. Thank you very much. Happy to come back anytime. 

Paul Kalemkiarian: Thank you for the time today, and I appreciate the insight. 

Andrew Friedman: Thank you, Paul. Good to be with you.

Paul Kalemkiarian: Thank you.

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